Four-track design back on the table for high-speed rail Around Town, posted by Editor, The Almanac Online, on Feb 10, 2012 at 12:47 pm
A new analysis by the California High-Speed Rail Authority calling for a four-track rail system between the Bay Area and Central Valley has set off a fresh wave of criticism from Palo Alto and surrounding cities, with many calling the latest document a betrayal of the rail authority's earlier promises.
Read the full story here Web Link posted Friday, February 10, 2012, 11:56 AM
Posted by Greg G, a resident of the Menlo Park: Menlo Oaks neighborhood, on Feb 10, 2012 at 12:47 pm
If a high speed train is to run from San Jose to SF, it is crazy to consider running it up the existing Cal Train track where it must cross residential streets at every block and where the cost of acquiring property near the right of way will run millions per acre.
The only sensible plan is to run the train up the 280 corridor, where road crossings are minimal and the train can thus run at "high speed". Otherwise what is the point? Let the existing tracks serve local commuters. The high speed train can take folks from SJ non- stop to SF (or maybe have a single stop in Palo Alto on the west side).
Posted by Mrs. B., a resident of the Menlo Park: Central Menlo Park neighborhood, on Feb 10, 2012 at 1:32 pm
This whole discussion is utterly surreal. There is NO MONEY WHATSOEVER to build this supersonic rail system, and it is ludicrous for anyone to spend any time or money planning for it with studies, EIRs or anything else. Who is going to pay for this? The Federal govt. and the State of CA are both unable to do so. The fare box will NEVER pay back the cost of this railway, even if it ran for the next century. High speed rail is a pleasing vision, like colonies on the moon, but a woeful waste of taxpayers time and money to even argue about.
Posted by Hugh Jexpens, a resident of another community, on Feb 10, 2012 at 7:20 pm
High Speed Rail doesn't belong on the Peninsula. Period. In the Bay Area, it belongs only in the East Bay, which is much more centrally located and can supply more potential customers. Run it up 680 or 580, then along 80 to Sacramento. Any other routing is egotistically stupid and short sighted.
...but if the Authority persists in pursuing an approach which involves 60 foot viaducts up and down the peninsula from San Francisco, to San Jose, which involves without the consent and desires of the local communities, Mr. vanArk I'll give you that point, to push itself outside the boundaries of the existing CalTrain right-of-way,and to pursue an EIR for a project which may never get built, and in my judgment shouldn't get built, for which ridership studies frankly are un-persuasive, and that leaves a sword over the head of the business and residences up and down that 50 foot corridor then, I am going to be pretty hard pressed to support that effort going forward.
Posted by Bob, a resident of the Menlo Park: Downtown neighborhood, on Feb 11, 2012 at 12:20 pm
Boondoggle plain and simple. Even if this were a good idea, there is no money and it will have to be so heavily subsidized if it ever gets built. Bandaid solutions are not the answer.
The politicians will continue to push this project to fuel their egos despite the cost overruns. If it ever gets built, it will happen after numerous studies, reports, etc. and cost well north of the original price tag. Can you say more taxes in an already tax heavy state.
Posted by Martin Engel, a resident of the Menlo Park: Park Forest neighborhood, on Feb 11, 2012 at 3:17 pm
The fact is, the rail authority never intended to not build a four-track elevated rail system on the Caltrain corridor. This design could be seen even before the 2008 elections in the CEQA program EIS/EIR, complete with diagrams. Then it was retaining walls; now it's an open viaduct.
The reason the rail authority has persisted with this alignment is because it is the least expensive, considering the grade separation requirements. Once the tracks are elevated, cross-streets would remain untouched. Great for them; a disaster for us.
The rail authority never took the "blended" idea seriously. To the degree that they agreed to it, it will only serve as a "place-holder" for the elevated viaducts that they intend to eventually build as funding became available. And that's why they remain in their current CEQA documents.
So, what does this mean for us? The cities on the Peninsula really need to get their act together, such as Palo Alto is doing. Our goal must be to keep high-speed rail off the Caltrain corridor.
How many people do you know that agree with you on this? It is your job to double that number. The State Legislature still can't hear us because we are still too few and not loud enough.
We are well past the point of polite conversation. There must be a major grass-roots ground-swell protest movement against this project on the Peninsula, and in California, for that matter. There needs to be a critical mass of people objecting to high-speed rail.
It's time to to raise our voices and show our anger. The "Boondoggle Group" in Burlingame are posting powerful, simple ads in the Sacramento Post. We should be doing this up and down the Peninsula.
It may not be well known, but we in the three counties are the public owners of the Caltrain corridor, which was bought with tax-payer dollars. It's our corridor and we want high-speed rail to stay off. We must all demand that our respective cities demand high-speed rail stay off the Caltrain corridor.
Posted by Charley Crocker, a resident of the Atherton: West Atherton neighborhood, on Feb 11, 2012 at 6:33 pm
High speed rail is a great idea. The new tracks will keep people on the East side of town in their places away from the rest of us. With only a few crossings on the mid-peninsula, it will be easy for police to watch the comings and goings.
Posted by Andy Chow, a resident of another community, on Feb 13, 2012 at 1:46 pm
I think it is a bit dishonest to say that the 4 track alternative is back on the table. The 4 track alternative has been on the program EIR all along, but that document alone is not sufficient to build a 4 track system since it requires a project level EIR. Right now Caltrain and HSRA is planning a blended system and I don't think that either agency is performing designs for a 4 track system that is ready for construction.
I understand the cities' concerns regarding impacts and implementation, and that I strongly support the blended system. However it is clear that NIMBY and/or teabaggers have invaded and is using the CEQA process to try to kill HSR (and other related passenger rail improvements) slowly.
Posted by Menlo Voter, a resident of the Menlo Park: other neighborhood, on Feb 13, 2012 at 2:39 pm
Andy, I'm sorry, but is isn't NIMBYism that is trying to kill HSR. It's people like me that see what a horrible plan it is. It was sold to the voters on a pack of lies. Those same voters who are now getting wise to the garbage they were sold want a revote. The problem is that HSR can't be built for anything less than 100 billion dollars (it was supposed to cost $33 billion), won't get people to LA from SF in the claimed 2 hours (more like 4) and will do nothing but drain the state coffers dry trying to buiid and maintain it resulting either in much higher taxes (in a state that is one of the most taxed in the nation) or greatly reduced services. HSR is boondoggle and that is why most of us want it eliminated.
Posted by G, a resident of another community, on Feb 13, 2012 at 10:52 pm
Why is it that cars always trump any potential "greater" benefit for both the city, the bay area, and the state?? Parking and a lane of traffic trump a project that serve the people of the state? At least give it a thought that a lane reduction can create a more livable street, a community street rather than a quasi highway in a city. For the people who built homes and businesses all the way up to the train tracks it is just a fact of life that it was the last remaining property and that the train was always there first.
It's an unfortunate reality that our roads and freeways were allowed to plow through cities and carve out our landscape. If we could harness some of that land it would be amazing but using the existing Caltrain corridor makes sense because it has the existing stations and facilities, and the way to make transit work is to serve the downtown core; primary destinations, not freeways that are out of sight, out of mind, and dependent upon cars.
It's unfortunate that so many people have narrowed down their criticisms and are working in bad faith. Rather than finding the best solution that everyone can benefit from, they have gone all NIMBY and may be looking for a big selfish payout. I expected better from these cities and these outspoken citizens. It cant always be all or nothing.
Finally, HSR is not the freight trains your accustomed to. Not even the caltrain you are so familiar with. Electrified caltrain and HSR will use lighter and quieter trains. No belching fumes, no horns blaring. But it's all up to the decisions we make today. BART cant do what HSR will, but you have to realize what it is and learn the facts before you say $100 billion?! A lot of that is because of things like this. Working together would save us time and money and would be a triumph for the people of the bay area and california. We used to have leadership and know how, but this looks more like typical political bickering.
Posted by Menlo Voter, a resident of the Menlo Park: other neighborhood, on Feb 14, 2012 at 7:44 am
as I said before it is NOT NIMBYism that has the MAJORITY of Californians now against HSR. It is the fact it was sold to the voters IN BAD FAITH with a pack of lies. It will cost far more than originally stated, it will take longer to get from LA to SF than originally stated, it will cost very much more for a ticket than originally stated, it won't pay for itself as originally stated and there won't be any private investment in it as origianly stated. It will just be a HUGE drain on the financial resources of this state which can ill afford it. HSR will saddle generations to come with HUGE obligations to support this thing as it clearly WILL NOT be self supporting.
I own a home close to the tracks. I bought it knowing there was a train there. I have no objection to trains running up and down those tracks. I'm quite used to it. My objections are totally financial. HSR is a boondoggle that will bleed this state dry just to satisfy some big egos in Sacramanto and to pay off organized labor with jobs. If it would do and cost what it was sold as, I would not object, but it doesn't and it won't. No G, no NIMBYism here, just sound financial sense and an objection to being lied to.
Posted by Sandy Bardas, a resident of the Menlo Park: Downtown neighborhood, on Feb 14, 2012 at 4:05 pm
It's not the commuters in the Los Angeles - San Francisco corridor who are clogging our streets and highways; it's local traffic. So this money would be better spent on improving local commuter public transportation rather than long distance transportation which is serviced by air travel.
Put the money (whatever amount there is) into an integrated Bay Area Transit System.
Posted by Alex, a resident of the Menlo Park: Linfield Oaks neighborhood, on Feb 14, 2012 at 10:11 pm
I believe that the proposed caltrain electrification does not include a fully grade separated railway. Add the silly HSR trains, and while maybe the trains themselves might be quieter, the increased rail traffic will result in a constant ringing of gate bells and horns blowing on the trains.
The cost for grade separations is most likely no where to found in any HSR documents, because they do not intend to build them. As far as they are concerned, local communities will need to mitigate that hazard and annoyance themselves. In Menlo Park alone, there are 4 at grade crossings. I am not a road/rail engineer, but the San Bruno grade separation project is as close a comparison as one can draw for a cost estimate. The advertized cost of the San Bruno grade separation was in the vicinity of $150M, and spanned three road crossings a distance of about 1000 feet. I have no ides what the actual cost is, but would be surprised if it's on budget. Menlo Parks at grade crossings cover a distance of about 2000 feet, and no doubt would need to be planned with nearby crossings in Atherton and maybe Palo Alto to keep the slope of the tracks within spec for passenger and freight service. I imagine the cost would be significantly higher than the San Bruno project due to the distance spanned, and the possible need to coordinate with other nearby grade separations. I imagine the CAHSR plans to leave Menlo Park, and most Peninsula communities, to fund these omissions themselves.
Posted by Bob, a resident of the Menlo Park: Downtown neighborhood, on Feb 15, 2012 at 11:16 pm
To Mr. Gordon -
Who do you expect to fund this over budget project?
The initial estimated cost has increased, and to maintain it will require subsidy from an already over budget state government. You don't have to look far to realize that Caltrain ridership is down and the cost of a ticket is up. Any savvy business man/woman would tell you this is not even a cost neutral project.
There are more reports, analysises, and probable court battles before this starts. What do you think the cost will be then?
So answer 1 question for me -- how expensive is too much to spend?